Roam Research, new web-based outliner that supports transclusion & wiki features - thoughts?

Agreed. But I still hope this is the plan down the line.

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I have just joined on with Dynalist. I was looking at Roam. I will stay with Dynalist. I hope Dynalist maintains its updates but also does not try to get too complex. There is a market for the tool you have today that uses simplicity as an advantage. The prices should also be more appealing.

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This is a lot to read…I tried to skim for what Roam is but haven’t figured it out yet. They require your credit card info just to use a demo, which it fantastically dumb, but that’s another tangent.

I can’t find an explaination. Bidirectional relationships between nodes could mean any number of different things. Can someone explain like I’m 5 or show me a video?

I get what a tree and a graph are. It’s just heirarchal and nonheirarchal relationships.

But…you can literally hyperlink to any node from any node already in dynalist. Just becuase the underlying document is structured heirarchally doesn’t matter. You can write everything flat in a tree, or nested, whatever you want. And hyperlinks still work. So…dynalist is already “bi-directional” in functionality…just like the whole internets hyperlink graph is…so what’s Roam get you? You just lose the underlying tree? The tree you were already free to ignore? Sorry to ramble, just expressing my confusion, trying to wrap my mind around what they’re describing and thinking anyones gonna give their credit card over to.

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What are you saying child? The Emperor has no clothes on? :open_mouth:

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It’s hard to explain clearly. But I think it’s something like this

My Document

  • This
    • is [topic]
    • stuff
  • Here
    • is more [topic]
      *stuff

If I understand correctly, when you make the link [topic], it creates/finds the document [topic] and puts a back link in it.

Topic

  • is [topic]
  • is more [topic]

And these link back to the sources. I’m sure I got the details wrong, but the main is that your bullet point links to the Topic page, and when you’re there the same bullet point is found there and links back to your document.

Another way to put it is that in a normal hyperlink structure, links point from parent to child, but not from child to parent. But here, every page is a graph node and if there is a link from A to B, you see that link when you look at A, and you see that link when you look at B.

Thanks Piotr.

Alan - by your description is sounds like dynalist can already act exactly like this by coding [topic] as [topic](document#q=topic)

I already do this actually. I have a node of topics that are just links to searches.

If that’s the main “feature” of roam I’m not impressed :confused:

But I do think Dynalist should add a markdown for searches thats easier. like ?topic? or something.

Reading your post, BC, made me think of this article. Perhaps you may find it more helpful for evaluating some of these “referential linking” uniquenesses?

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The difference is your link is a search. Their link is an automatic generated editable document.

There’s no difference between search and an automatically generated editable document in dynalist though. I’m talking about a normal search, not flat search. The one where dynalist just filters down the document but otherwise it’s just as editable of a document.

You cant edit a search, rearrange and structure

Are we talking about the same thing here? Because I sure can. All of those things. The only thing search does to a document is the nonmatching nodes disappear. Otherwise, editing functions are identical to just a normally opened document. You are talking about the hotkey in the key map list that is called “Search in doc”, correct?

there’s actually a big difference between a simple search and automatic backlinking : searching is an action that you need to trigger, whereas backlinking is a relevant info that is passed to you on each page and updated automatically.
Each document will link all the other documents/blocks that are pointing to it, in context (a small excerpt of the backlink).

Backlinks usually go hand in hand with the concept of Transclusion : the inclusion of a note in another note, so you can re-use the same unit/atomic note in multiple places. Being instances, if you change one instance, they are all updated, reflecting the modification in multiples places simultaneously (in dynalist, it’s a long standing feature request that was labelled as 'cloning`).

Currently there is no way to emulate transclusions and baclinks in Dynalist. You can manually create 2 way links but it’s a very limited and time consuming process.

You should give it an actual try to fully realize these are game changing features.

If you don’t want to give your $ to Roam, I would recommend RemNote.io to get a feel of the workflow. RemNote is free and gets frequent updates, it’s fast and has a lot of nice features (auto creation of flashcards with spaced repetition, backlinks, etc…).

Other alternatives to consider are:

  • TiddlyWiki5 (it’s the best in terms of features and expandability via plugins, free and fast but steep learning curve. Readymade projects to look for : Stroll, Drift, TiddlyRoam, TiddlyBlink…)
  • Obsidian.md (made by the Dynalist team . offline markdown editor/viewer. no outlining/ToC though)
  • ThinkTool.io (early stages, lacking in features but nice to test the worflow)
  • MindForger (markdown IDE with automatic links and outlining/ToC features)
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Once you use it for a few days you see the power behind it. Words don’t do it justice. But it basically allows you to author a node in an outline, and then have that node sow up in a different document. But its not a shortcut, its live in both places. Roam allows you to control if that node is readonly or editable. So I may be doing research in once place, and I want that research to appear in a different document. When I update that text either in its origional place, or where it is appearing in its second place, its just one text being changed.

Backlinking is a different thing. It is like a tag you add to a node in an outline. But instead of searching on that tag, you have a document for that tag where anything that used that tag links to. Also it is a document, so it can have its own content.

It becomes a document with its own content, and shows you how all other content in your database links to it. In time, you begin to interconnect things that don’t seem connected and it forms new ways for you to think about your notes.

Again, you need to try it. Words fail. But my conclusion: Dynalist is a great document outliner. Transclusion allows us to stop thinking about documents, and rather about “Atoms” of data, small chunks for connecting, remixing and repurposing.

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I agree with your points, but I think there are some areas where Dynalist is still essential. Nodal platforms like Roam and Obsidian are good for overviews and can provide the dashboard for planning that Dynalist has lacked since PowerPack 3 stopped working. But Dynalist has great features for fine-grained work, such as checklists, move functions and keyboard shortcuts. It’s much easier to find something quickly in Dynalist. So at the moment, I need both at the same time: steering wheel and accelerator.

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I have been trying Roam Research, and would like to import my journal entries from Dynalist into Roam, though I have a problem with the formatting of my notes prior to export.

The current set-up is

JOURNAL MAIN FILE

- Date
	-Entry
		-sub entry
		-sub entry

- Date
	-Entry
		-sub entry
		-sub entry

So when the files are exported, it is one large file rather than separated by date. I would like to have each entry to be split by date (much like the daily notes section of roam).

Can someone please advise on a workaround for this :slight_smile:

Thank you!

Small peek into the future: To combine the strengths of dynalist and roam I consider implementing a two way sync when roam publishes their api.

This for instance allows me to keep using my quick dynalist app and other awesome dynalist benefits.

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So now that Dynalist has backlinks, is there anything compelling about Roam anymore?
https://blog.dynalist.io/2020-june-update/

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  • transclusions (cloning nodes in multiple locations)
  • semantic tagging : extract any portion of a text into a new node
  • kanban boards
  • split view / side by side view
  • mermaid diagrams support
  • graph view
  • hiccup/html embeds
  • you can make [[[[complex]] [[links]] to connect nodes/[[pages]]]]
  • hover popup previews
    …
    I still love Dynalist but Roam and Remnote are moving faster
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Agree that Remnote has more of what I want, but for me it is confusing and unintuitive. In addition it has no backups to Google drive/onedrive/dropbox.