Usefulness of folders and documents

💬General
#32

Provided the main value of the document model actually is to help quick access to deeply nested items in this overall abstract tree structure, I think there is a way to retain that value while doing away with the cons of the document models which in my book are :

  • mental and on-usage overhead which impact flow :

    • you essentially have to keep in mind two structures to find information
    • you probably spend time getting the structure of the folders and file right, which is kind of absurd since you already spend a lot of time getting the structure of your notes/journals/lists right

  • nobody’s forced to use multiple documents, but let’s face it, users are nudged to. you have this big shiny document pane, and having only one file on it does not feel satisfying. This seems like a “don’t-push-the-big-red-button” (of course you will!) type of situation. Nothing wrong with the document model, but I think there’s a better way.

  • The document sharing model (as @ruud mentioned) which forces you to adapt your thought to accommodate to Dynalist

On to the idea. It actually comes from the very-well done Bear app. In Bear, you have a document model, but the structure is not built, it actually emerges from tag usage.
It makes no sense for Dynalist to consider using this model as-is, since tags are per-node, and have a broader usage than just “simulating” documents.
But a few tweaks would allow to have a single structure for everything while gaining the clarity and quick access of a document model.

It would be interesting for the file pane to be automatically populated through specific markers set by the user.

Say I have only one big outline with all my things in it. Say there’s not a lot going on in my life right now so I only have this :

  • Home
    • is
      • where
        • the
          • heart
            • is
      • a
        • state
          • of
            • mind

Now I can bookmark each of these nodes for quick reference. That’s great. Say I bookmarked the outlines in bold. Now I got three bookmarks called “hear” “is” and “mind”, in whatever order and no structure on the bookmark pane.

What I propose instead of having a document pane you fill manually is for the pane to automatically populate with the path from the root node to your bookmarks. In my example we would see

  • Home
    • heart
      • is
    • mind

This obviously has a huge impact. Because that would involve switching to the one-big-document model Ă  la workflowy.

What I think is interesting about this approach :

  • for people who think in folders : they can have their folders and files.
  • for people who think in. outlines : they can have quicker access to deep parts of their structure that matches the way it is set up

I think by doing that, not only will Dynalist get an advantage over Workflowy, but on other two-panes outliners as well, such as Outlinely.

5 Likes
#33

I like it. The idea sounds like an evolution of my “allow custom structure for bookmarks instead of documents” suggestion I made a few times throughout the thread.

3 Likes
#34

Thanks :slight_smile:
Would love to know the feasibility of such a thing, but I’m not getting my hopes up.

#35

So… what you’re saying is that your proposal changes everything they have at the moment to provide the exact same functionality they have now, but also the fact that every user then needs to re-learn and restructure everything based on this new format?

I have 50+ documents in various folders/sub-folders. I have 4 bookmarks which I’m surprised by because I use 0. Never.

Plus there are significant performance penalties in the workflowy “all one document” structure. Specifically since Dynalist wasn’t designed from the get-go to be used in that manner. It would require an additional database restructuring and massive front-end re-writes too if I’m not mistaken.

With all due respect, I don’t see dynalist wanting to rewrite the majority of their app to provide the same functionality they already provide because you feel bookmarks make a better document structure than folders and documents.

1 Like
#36

It’s technically possible to automatically and reliably convert one format to the other, but yes, it’s highly unlikely that Dynalist will change anything because it basically “works” the way it is.

#37

Well, it’s not exactly the same if it leads to organizing your content differently, is it ?

True, me neither.
However, if we’re talking panes, would automatically hierarchical bookmarks such as those that describes be such a massive undertaking ?

I get you’re not using bookmarks. I tried using Dynalist with the multiple documents, and didn’t really need bookmarks then.
Since I didn’t want to bother with managing multiple documents (and all the other reasons I listed above) I went back to the single doc model, with which I’m fairly happy, if not for the quick access you guys can have.

1 Like
#38

If we were to design Dynalist again, we could consider it, maybe. But not really at this point, 2.5 years after the prototype. There are too much to be changed, both technical and product wise (current users are already so familiar with how things work currently), and although it might improve Dynalist for some people, unfortunately I don’t think it’s worth the time and effort. Soon we even want to avoid loading documents which are not being used into memory… that would make the “everything in one list” proposal less feasible.

The idea is more interesting than useful, and I think you can tell that we’re practicalists, not purists. Documents, or rather individual files, are familiar concepts since the beginning of GUI, and we find it useful to mark boundaries.

It’s interesting that people either love or hate having the document model. Some say it’s artificial or it’s redundant, and others say they finally found the solution to “not being able to create a new page on WorkFlowy”. So I understand where you’re coming from and some will agree with you.

We created Dynalist not hoping to convert all of our competitors’ users; we hope to convert those who think like us. Hopefully we’ll understand each other on an abstract level. :four_leaf_clover:

6 Likes
#39

document switching was one of the things that actually sold me on dynalist

i always found switching to a different location in workflowy to be a real pain in most cases. having to zoom out to the start and then navigate back in each time was too much of a time sink and if it was just to add a quick note somewhere then it was even worse since you have to navigate all the way back to where you were

with dynalist its as simple clicking on a document in the sidebar (or using the cltr + o hotkey and typing the first two letters of the document) and then youre roughly at the spot you want

of course this could be easily solved in a 1-document-only type setup by using bookmarks… but the last time i was using workflowy you could only see around 4 or 5 bookmarks at a time because the devs in all their infinite wisdom thought a horizontal list of bookmarks was a good idea. maybe they had their reasons

anyway, i dont think you could make bookmarks work the same way as documents since selecting a bookmark would bring you to the exact location each time, whereas switching to a document remembers the sub-item you were previously zoomed into which is a useful feature to have when youre switching back and forth a lot

another minor plus for separate documents: ive never shared anything in dynalist or workflowy, but the thoughts of sharing a sub-item thats in the same document as a lot of other private stuff just makes me feel uneasy, even though theres probably not much difference between the two methods, security wise.

4 Likes
#40

Yes. I think this really is your only issue. If you don’t like the folder/document system then for the most part it’s simple: don’t use it. But, for you I think the only issue with that is you are forced to use it if you want to share stuff. Bummer.

How about logging a feature request for “be able to share at the node level?” As @Nick_Spreitzer pointed out, the cool thing about Dynalist over WorkFlowy is that Dynalist is actually being developed and improved. If you log that feature request and enough other people share your pain, you may get what you want in a future update :slight_smile:

#41

+1 for hierarchical bookmarks… and then bookmark level sharing? :wink:

I keep coming back to my recipe list where I have a tags for #chicken # beef #vegan #italian #mexican etc. so it is easy for me to filter my recipes. At the same time I want to share one recipe at at time and not ALL of my recipes. It’s such a simple and common use case I would think it would have to be addressed eventually. Right now I resort to the export functionality to send someone a recipe.

1 Like
#42

It’s here: https://trello.com/c/V2zvGqou/21-share-an-item-rather-than-a-document

And agreed, that’s the only truly convincing argument we’ve heard that document & folder structure just can’t do. Although I still tend to think people propose this because of the existence of WorkFlowy. For example, you don’t see people suggesting that Google Docs should allow sharing a section or a paragraph (maybe some do, just not as often brought up as with Dynalist).

Anyway the feature request is up there in the roadmap, and you’re welcome to vote for it if you find it useful.

#43

Roger that. I’m also hungry for no reason after reading that… :fork_and_knife:

2 Likes
#44

Just coming over from Workflowy so I’ll be the first to admit I’m in a re-learning mode but having said that I’ve got to agree with just about everything Torben and then Aldo said a while back.

For me it all boils down to having a consistent experience no matter what level you’re working at, including the ‘top’ level. Why can’t I just mark an entire file as checked-off? Or highlight it with a specific color? Etc.

(Conversely, if Workflowy would just add a two-pane navigator where I could use the left pane in about the same way I use Dynalist’s File Pane, but with Workflowy’s consistent behavior with the rest of the sub-trees, they’d be providing a huge boost in navigability).

I get that there’s an underlying data model of Files/folders/bullets… but that doesn’t necessarily dictate what the USER sees. (And yes, I also get why developers WANT the UI to reflect that underlying data model too… but that’s not my problem :slight_smile: )

Obviously there are so many other things that Dynalist gets right that I’m probably going to stick around… but I’ll always miss the elegance of Workflowy’s behavior where EVERY level is treated the same.

1 Like
#45

I understand your perspective. Mine is different. I like that I have a separate document for my work project. I can easily search that document. I can easily navigate to the root of that document and not feel I am floating in a larger nebulous concept.

I am all in favor of your wishes for enhancing the file explorer, even to the level of giving it power akin to a document.

Just don’t confuse a deliberate UI decision with a “we’re just following the internal model” excuse. I assure you the design is intended.

1 Like
#46

Maybe I just don’t understand DL’s searching yet then… it seems like it’s already local to whatever level you’re zoomed into (with the ability to search everything provided as a quick link as well).

Anyway, clearly it’s not something that they’re motivated to change and since there’s not really a good way to measure the cognitive load a more consistent experience would provide I guess it’s time for me to let it go :slight_smile:

#47

I became a paid Dynalist subscriber in January 2017 and set up notes, personal and work documents, building them out in ever-deeper nodes. There were a bunch of times I felt tangled in a mess, sometimes discovering similar information was in different places. I built elaborate, hard-to-read bookmarks with arrows, meant to distinguish folders and subfolders.

This week, I ported over everything to dozens of documents. What an improvement! :):grinning: I feel like I can breathe! Rather than feeling overwhelmed with gobs of information, I now think my info is neatly arranged and easily accessible. I’m still getting a feel for how deep I should go into nodes compared with creating new documents, but this is a judgment call usually based on how frequently I want to access information. My documents now serve as bookmarks. There’s really no need for bookmarks if documents are set up well.

To me, the No. 1 thing about Dynalist is that I have access to all my information in a flash in one tab! Most work in the browser these days, so Dynalist has saved me well more than 100 hours the past two years from having to create, store, manage, locate, open, compose/edit and close dozens upon dozens of Google Docs.

I have no Workflowy experience save for signing up for a minute and then canceling on my way to quickly discovering the mighty Dynalist!

4 Likes
#48

@ronb I totally agree with you about the two-panel navigator. And I agree that having a consistent user experience across the different levels is the productivity killer. When you get people who think in lists and let them start organizing their ideas into lists, but then tell them that certain of their ideas can’t be interacted with in the same way as other ideas, that produces user frustration.

So, while I also see the benefit for having top-level “document” items, I also see that not allowing users to interact with those top-level document items the same way they deal with the lower level items is a serious user experience failure. (Can list items from inside one top-level list ‘document’ be dragged into another top-level list ‘document’? Not as far as I can tell.) Its like training someone to drive a car, but then telling them that the brakes only work at certain intersections. That’s just frustrating enough to make users avoid using that feature of the tool.

However, I sympathize with the developers. Asking for drastic overhauls is not practical. Still, I think some solutions might be possible without undue investment for the developers.

For instance, what if the bookmarks section of the navigation panel were revamped to be hierarchical? That way, those who love to think in terms of top-level documents can have that experience in the Documents panel section and those who do not can still have a navigation panel that matches the way they think. I know that I personally wouldn’t touch the Document view of the side panel if there were robust hierarchical Bookmarking view to work with.
As you mentioned Workflowy is failing by not adding this sort of feature as an easily accessible sidebar. The inability to easily navigate between general and specific views of the data at the same time is a huge liability; one which strangely seems deprioritized in both Dynalist as well as Workflowy.

1 Like
#49

I think you’ll find that the Powerpack extension by @Piotr has nested bookmarks in the side panel.

1 Like
#50

@kevin_murray good to know although… man I really don’t want to go down the road of browser extensions. Particularly since I use the standalone app, not the in-browser version.

1 Like
#51

@geoff I think we’re in total agreement. Hopefully Dynalist hears this from a few more people too!