Roam Research, new web-based outliner that supports transclusion & wiki features - thoughts?

Yes, backlinks is certainly of interest. I remember using them in the ill-fated Note Studio years ago.

But I think Dynalist is so far ahead of the pack, discussions about alternatives is more about the future development of Dynalist rather than serious competition. Some of us may use one of these for niche purposes, but it is far from being a replacement.

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If anybody really wants to see the program, what it can do, the short videos are helpful, but the real meat is in the Help document. There you see all kinds of information arranged in an editable and very hyperlinked manner. Itā€™s very interesting, but itā€™s confusing to use, and being full of bugs at present just makes it more so. Iā€™ll be watching to see how this develops.

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Looks a bit like a combination of TiddlyWiki (which has been around for many years) and an outline. Not sure what the constraint of an outline adds, especially since the idea of TiddlyWiki is that itā€™s free form. Itā€™s a link maker rather than a list maker so I wouldnā€™t see it as a Dynalist or Workflowy competitor. Might be useful for students and researchers which seems to be the demographic theyā€™re pitching it at.

What outline adds is Workflowy style subdocument links, albeit powered up.

Yep, I think theyā€™re precisely targeting researchers, thus the name.

Dynalist is definitely better w.r.t. general outliner functionality. But I believe the backlinks/graph representation/automated concept definition (like described in https://twitter.com/andy_matuschak/status/1190102758164066304) point at something interesting/important.

Would love to see a support of something like that in Dynalist! (is there a Trello card I can upvote for this one? :stuck_out_tongue:

Cross-references talks about something related too

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Just did a bit more exploring and sharing the blocks of data + the inline versioning seems like a great idea too!

I think this card is the closest thing: https://trello.com/c/iKkPV6JK/151-show-all-mentions-of-an-internal-link

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@Erica I think itā€™s related but does not really capture the main value of the way Roam represent things, Iā€™d recommend you to play with their demo workspace if you havenā€™t already

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I have played with it, but unfortunately their demo/white paper is a bit messy right now. If you can give me some more specific pointers, like how to access the features you mentioned, that would be helpful! :hugs:

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I really like the feature ā€œRoam Sidebarā€, but I wish it to be more sophisticated. For example, anything you shift-click will open the sidebar with correspond function (item -> item & childs, link -> webpage, tag -> all relate tagā€¦). Right now I always have to open a new window if I donā€™t want to lose my place. It will be a great new Pro feature :slight_smile:

  • [[Roam Sidebar]]
    • If you Shift-Click on a tag or title you can open that page in the right-sidebar
      • You can also left-click on a bullet point to open that in the sidebar as well.
    • The sidebar can be helpful for looking at multiple things at once, rather than jumping between documents ā€“ so you can more easily follow tangents an ā€œroamā€ around in your ideas, without losing your place.
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Hey, glad to see this thread!

Iā€™ve also been trying out Roam and although it isnā€™t very polished, I definitely think its onto something new and important treating notes as a graph instead of a hierarchy and automation. I believe this is the paradigm that makes these features really intuitive and frictionless.

These are the features that have stood out to me. I would love to see more cross-pollination from other outliners, but I havenā€™t seen them implemented the same way anywhere else:

  • Backlinks
  • Page Sidebar (This is not a list of notes or pages sidebar that is present in most note-taking apps. I think this could be extended to just be tabs like a text editor)
  • Automatic page creation based on links
  • Automatic reference aggregation based on heading level references
  • Automatic link updates e.g if you change the page title it changes all linked references on all pages!

I love Dynalist and Iā€™d be curious to hear if any of these features are in the pipeline or could beā€¦ or canā€™t be done.

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The backlinking setup is a good idea even for a more traditional hierarchical app like this, makes it easier to cross-pollinate pages and eg. build bibliography files (which is something Iā€™ve been looking for for ages, to link authors and their writing together easily)

What I like most about Roam is that I can write almost anything and not have to organize the information. If I tag or link the subject(s) itā€™s complete. This gives me a lot of confidence in the system that I wonā€™t lose or in frustration search for relevant notes. I donā€™t feel it is a trendy new feature. Itā€™s a critical missing element in all note solutions.

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Wow Iā€™ve found another one that follows a very similar knowledge representation model to Roam (graph with easy way to crete and connect concepts, backlinks, transclusion, etc). But it also has spaced-repetition model (autogenerating cards from your knowledge graph) on top of that: https://www.remnote.io

UX is kind of clunky though.

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There was a discussion on the Tinderbox forum around a report that the owner of Roam was looking at pricing the product at $30/month or $10,000 lifetime subscription. (Thatā€™s not a typo.)

:scream:

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I agree. Dynalist is so far ahead of the competiotion.

Agree. Deeplinking or crossreferences or backlinking would be super usefull. For the time being the best workaround is using tags intentionally.

See my post here: Tag structure for Dynalist (GTD , Zettelkasten and SecondBrain )

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Pricing isnt set in stone. The founder also mentioned that beta users will not pay full price if they create an account before the official launch. I would love to see Dynalist add backlinks feature like Roam has.

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The wiki style creation of pages, using square brackets, is cool, of course. Whatā€™s super powerful in Roam Research is:

  • No need to figure out where that page goes: it just ā€œisā€
  • The page created for a term automatically shows all references to that page which are explicitly linked but also unlinked references
    • those unlinked references can be turned into linked references at the click of a button, one by one or one click for all
  • Page titles can be changed and the wording of the links will automatically update

Those are killer features for a knowledge system.

It would be feasible to do similar manually in Dynalist, or for Dynalist to add features like this. ā€œHardestā€ would be dealing with the document space. New entries created by square bracket use would have to live in a sort of ā€œnew pagesā€ document. People can leave them there. Of course once a user would move the page the links would break as weā€™re not really using words as the GUID but real GUIDā€™s.

As for the price point: $30 USD is a lot of money. Itā€™s more than a software + sync services subscription to TheBrain, which has been around forever. The founder really believes Roam brings so much value that it would merit that price point, even though he keeps the door open to possible changes.

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